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1500 vs 2500 Diesel or Gas
#41
(12-19-2017, 10:44 AM)tx2sturgis Wrote: More torque = more power. No way to get around that when it comes to real world gas and diesel engines.

OMG

https://auto.howstuffworks.com/differenc...epower.htm

Use critical thinking, analysis, to determine the element being discussed.
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#42
Cool, that article agrees with me. Torque produces work, and in an internal combustion engine, at a certain RPM (above idle) this means power. 

Just to clarify, I was not and did not refute your assertions, they are 100% correct. 

I was however, explaining (in detail) why I said it the way I said it.
Never trust a camp cook with lots of shiny new pans...
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#43
(12-19-2017, 09:37 AM)tx2sturgis Wrote: Wanna talk electric motors?  Yep....very different now....You can have MAXIMUM torque at zero RPM with ZERO horsepower being produced. 

Within your own argument, is the answer. Torque can exist without RPM. Torque is not a measure of the ability to do work. I accept your statement above.
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#44
(12-19-2017, 12:07 PM)BadSaver Wrote:  Torque can exist without RPM. Torque is not a measure of the ability to do work.

Well we are going around and around. 

The article you linked agrees with me:

"Torque, as mentioned above, can be generated without moving an object. However, when it does move an object, it then becomes "work," and this is what most people think of when they think of torque (usually in terms of towing). The more torque produced by an engine, the more work potential it has."

With internal combustion engines, torque IS a measure of how much work it can do.

And I was specifically and repeatedly referring to internal combustion engines which DO have to be turning to produce either torque or horsepower. 

If you buy or build a truck with an all electric drivetrain and pull trailers with it, then we would have a different conversation.
Never trust a camp cook with lots of shiny new pans...
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#45
Torque is Force not ability to do work (power). Torque does not include time and distance (rpm). When you include RPM you can extrapolate to your points. Torque is not used differently in the automotive industry. Torque and RPM together gives us power. We measure power as horsepower.

Bad Analogy here: Voltage is an electromotive FORCE (Analogy to Torque). It's not an indicator of ability to do work. There are many size batteries that are 12 vdc. When we add amps in a formula we have WATTS. Ability to do work.

The point of this was to help the Original Poster determine the correct vehicle for his needs. I don't know what those are. So, I didn't extrapolate to Semi Trucks, etc. Weirdly, it turned into a diesel deal... Diesel is fine...
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#46
(12-18-2017, 04:21 PM)BadSaver Wrote: So, what I did was go to Auto Trader and search all vehicles for sale over 200,000 miles. Lots of diesels above that range. Not many way above. Information there would make a great statistical analysis. Going down that path (adding production numbers), it might be possible to determine which engines were better over time. 

I was a Chevy guy and my Dad was a Chevy guy. My F250 is the first Ford in the family. Similar research indicated that there were more F250s for sale above 200,000 than any other vehicle. At the time, they appeared to make up 12% of the over 200,000 miles population of vehicles for sale.

If I sound anti-diesel, I'm not. I don't want to afford one. And, I work on my stuff myself. Gas is what I know. Congrats on your miles.

Plenty of diesels with over 200,000 miles...the best approach if using stats ( which I also took in college) would be to approach why so many diesels are for sale around 200,000 miles... a more likely probability would be owners getting rid of them because they want something newer "to impress people they dont like with money they dont have" (the definition of affluence). and just as many Gassers are out there with the same amount of miles with another 100k to go but they are also dumped out fear of what "might" happen or heaven forbid a slip in social standing.
Hook up 10,000 lbs and pull a few mountain grades with a gasser and a diesel and the Horse power Vs Torque semantics is really irrelevant...its easy to be argumentative until real world application spanks that butt!
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#47
(12-20-2017, 06:24 PM)thatdarncat Wrote: Hook up 10,000 lbs and pull a few mountain grades with a gasser and a diesel and the Horse power Vs Torque semantics is really irrelevant...its easy to be argumentative until real world application spanks that butt!

But I was a truck driver... I lived out West. I'm not arguing... I get that lots of torque at lower rpms, making most horsepower there is preferred. I'm just stating that torque is force, horsepower is the measurement of work. It's not semantics...

So, I looked around for towing videos. One gas & one diesel similar vehicles. Anyways, this is horsepower (Gas 390 hp) vs torque (diesel 500 lbs).

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zVDoo5fiLCg

The part about the diesel gas debate, towing power, that I don't like is comparing a normally aspirated engine with a turbo charged engine. Ford's EcoBoost engines, I can see an EcoBoost one day that out pulls diesels. Who knows. Fuel preference, I don't care.

An F250 similiar to mine on the IKE Gauntlet
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9gMV35SbAOY
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#48
Put a super tuner chip in that diesel! Factory tuning is usually pretty mild on a diesel that's running thru an automatic, because most automotive automatics are limited on maximum torque input. 

The gas engine is probably close to maxed out already...
Never trust a camp cook with lots of shiny new pans...
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#49
For cheap and reliable towing vehicle I believe you cant beat the 4.9/300 CID Ford inline 6.  It has really good torque at a low RPM like a diesel and is ultra reliable.  They get good gas mileage (around 20 mpg). They are not fast at all but do tow just fine. The engine is available in F100s-F350 so you can get a nice 3/4 ton with it. I used to drive one and tow with it, really one of the most reliable and easy to work on engines in the modern era. Notice the low rpm the torque peaks are at. Do not let the numbers fool you, the engine will just pull nice and smoothly. They are also found in some vans I believe.

1965 - 1972
170 hp @ 3,800 rpm
283 lb-ft @ 1,600 rpm
Brake horsepower rating
1973 - 1974
101 hp @ 3,000 rpm
223 lb-ft @ 1,600 rpm
Net horsepower rating system introduced. Compression lowered from 8.9 to 8.0 : 1
1975 - 1977
• 101 hp @ 3,400 rpm
• 120 hp @ 3,400 rpm
223 lb-ft @ 1,600 rpm
2 different horsepower ratings produced during these model years
1978 - 1986
• 101 hp @ 3,400 rpm
• 115 hp @ 3,400 rpm
• 117 hp @ 3,400 rpm
• 120 hp @ 3,400 rpm
223 lb-ft @ 1,600 rpm
4 different horsepower ratings produced during these model years, all with the same torque output
1987 - 1993
145 hp @ 3,400 rpm
265 lb-ft @ 2,000 rpm
EFI introduced, compression ratio increased to 8.8 : 1
1994 - 1996
150 hp @ 3,400 rpm
260 lb-ft @ 2,000 rpm
1996 was last model year of production
[Image: attachment.php?aid=16152]My Freedom-24' 4,000lb 1993 Lance 5th wheel w/1235 Watt Solar/LiFePo & 2003 4x4 Chevy Duramax

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#50
(01-07-2017, 05:11 AM)Goshawk Wrote: High mileage Diesel 2500 truck with 200000 miles is still $25000. (Many say that's low for a Diesel).

B10 and B50 are the standard measurements of diesel engine life

http://www.dieselhub.com/tech/b10-b50-life.html

I suspect that by 200,000 miles 10% of the population requires a major repair. Within the next 100,000 (my guess) miles half the population will need a major engine repair. There are few 300,000 mile plus trucks for sale nationwide when we searched autotrader. At 200,000 miles, it's probably a good time to sell the truck (depending on your conviction).

The newer diesels, meeting the New EPA guidelines, are less reliable than previous diesels.
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Goshawk (12-27-2017)


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