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How I Became a Vagabond
Salt Creek Campground - Salton Sea

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Well, I must admit I feel like I'm reading a novel about a cynical protagonist. I feel sad, angry, scared, concerned, and even empathy while reading your posts. 

Why such a small loop in America? You seem more like a world vagabond/nomad/traveler. 

Ever think of sailing the oceans? Many people sailing/cruising with the same mind set as you.
Currently reading ->

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INTJohn (02-19-2017)
Oh man did I get drunk last nite. Even for my standards. But the gin & tonik which really wasn't gin & tonik had a special appeal to my tatse buds. Every once inawhile I stumble into 2 litre bottles of ginger ale for 89 cents vs my usual 2 litre deals of tonik for 98 cents so then I splurge on gin & ginger; so I'm on a gin & ginger diet til further notice. haha

Also all that stuff I wrote last weekend here I actually planned to write it over a 3 maybe 4 week interval but didn't the weather just SUCK! last weekend here in the desert and so I was stuck in The Box with really nothing to do for about 60 hours but start writing and use up a weex rations of tonik (hence I delightfully found the ginger ale deal tho) in 1 weekend. Oh well (I haz a sad)

I see I've left off with Truth but I'm not sure I'm ready to take off down that trail yet. I'm sort of more interested in Lies but then hell its sorta really hard to have one without the other, isn't it? Even then sheeeesh! Mathematically speaking its difficult to not believe that 2 + 2 = 4 although I'm still finding it difficult to start relying on computations; to get my head wraped around double or gawd forbid triple intgrals that have complex numbers utilizing imaginary numbers either as an upper limit or a lower limit. Finding them as lower limts probably wouldn't be such a trip if I would look at them sober but man! when I see one of thoze little italized i's somewhere as an upper limit; well that really fuks my brain up........

On the other hand does it really have to be so difficult simply to accept everything that one has been brought up to believe; and here I'm speakinig releative to that which has become acceptable as Truth or aS Lie? This is my problem then; not with myself mind you but the fact that I've wandered thru Life, solitary, not only wonderring How in the hell did I get stuck on this planet with People; but that I'm also in their fuking form!?

Anyway, I don't think my head is completely full yet and it doesn't hurt either so I really don't have a need to write about Truth yet, or Lie. Nope not enough thought yet to need to get rid of it in some written manner. I mean hell what is considered true by ones family or circle of friends or many good & honest people is a sense of what really comforts, edifys & elevates Humanity (should I punctuate this as a statement or a an inquiry?) ok I'll leave it unpunctuated - what else can I do?? I don't have an answer........

Is it more difficult then to strike off on a new path?
Fighting the habits of Law or tradition?
Experiencing the insecurities of independence?
The wavering of one's feelings, thoughts & ideas?
Even my own conscience?

To proceed then without any consolation down solitary and unexplored ideas & concepts within my own mind & heart having some lasting goal of what is true if not beautiful & good? Is there then really some respite in Truth? Is it really peace, rest or pleasure that one hopes to find or attain by such a journey?

Truth is often abhorrent, ugly & painful and a faith can never support any proof of its existence; rather Truth stands on its own with or with out you or your faith, impersonal, as a mirage distant in the sunlight wavering & flickering only to become a farther distance the closer you think you are getting to it.

And this is where the paths & roads of people will always part - if you want to have peace of mind; if you want to have peace of heart; if you desire those pleasures of stimulation and comfort then its very necessary for you to believe and embrace that which you have been brought up on.....

But if you wish to be devoted to Reality then you must inquire & seek and its discovery will often be of an unspeakable ghastliness becoming a monster.

"If you want to fight with Monsters then beware that you yourself do not become one; for If you stare into the Abyss long enough, The Abyss will stare back into you." Freidrich Nietzsche

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Wabbit (02-27-2017)
(02-18-2017, 11:41 AM)INTJohn Wrote: At this point it may be best to put a hold on anymore verbage and let 1 picture tell a thousand words:

Duck Lake?
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So now this is about the Monsters of Truth.  
Well before I list each one of them, for there are many of them and I've had to engage singley in 'mortal combat' with each of them & there is only one of me. I should elaborate a little, I guess about what the warfare is all about as its a burden that I can no longer carry and neither can I throw it off my back. Keeping aware that I don't want to become a Monster of Truth myself........

Where in the hell does this desire for Truth by Humanity come from? We don't even know what Truth is yet we have this desire for it. Like a hunger - a desire for something to eat yet we don't know what or where the food is. It has some value to the Human animal as it relates to itself and others; a peace pact, a Treaty of Handshake, a sense of comfort & ease. Form there it can be recognised as a first step to this mystic desire, urge for Truth that can only be  communicated symbolically linguistically as a legislation leading to the first Laws of Truth. From here one can see too that now is discovered the contrast between Truth & Lie.

The liar gives a false communication, a deception by some reversal to what is perceived as true. When this is done in a self- serving manner that hurts, damages someone else or many, Society will no longer trust that person &  begin to exclude them. Society then does not really have anything against the Lie perse' but rather the damage, the hurt, the pain that it has inflicted......
So Society, Humanity, wants The Truth for its comfort & security & peace ...........

But it is in the exact same manner that the communication of Truth & the communicator of Truth is often received and treated by Society, too; becuase Truth is often abhorrent, painful  and damaging. All of this both Truth & Lie being communicated linguistically - verbal or written. Is this sense of truth & lie then merely a matter of knowledge expressed as language? Language being the only bridge to both truth & lie? An expression of all Reality?  what then is this word of truth? an illusion, an empty bowl?

Isn't Truth then really just a necessary Fiction?

Words are only an audible stimulus - a noise and different noises can be and mean different things and the fact that there are so many languages exhibits that what matters linguistically is really never a matter of truth. Truth then , in and of itself is quite incomprehensible to any particular Human expression. A person receives a sensual image; the mind recreates, emboldens it as metaphore; the image then is communicated verbal or written as a second metaphore and then, if, a very rare kind of writer communicates it aphoristically - we have a metaphore of a metaphore of a mass of metaphores! Like a hatch of spiders that are each crawling away helterskelter! lol the epitomy of Comedy? haha Certainly at times........

What then is truth? but this cavalry of metaphores  - a sum of human relations on some scale, magnified, transposed, mutated, evolved, embellished, rhetorically, until at some point they become so ingrained into the manner & culture of a Society that they become firm, rigid,  obligatory to this mass of Humanity  and eveyone has long forgotten that they are simply metaphores which have become worn out like a coin that no longer has value except only as metal.

We don't know where this urge for truth by humanity comes from and I only see it as an obligation imposed by a Society that it should exist. For a man to be truthful then means to use the customary metaphors, in a moral sense and in moral terms as simply manner to lie according to a fixed convention, To lie en masse, herd like in an acceptable style that is acceptable & obligatory to all.

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Wabbit (02-27-2017)
Well this has been quite a lil journey and I've almost arrived to the destination of its first leg. Way ahead of schedule I'll add thanx to that inclement weather last weekend. When writing bad weather always means good sailing!

What I'm writing about then, if you haven't intuitively been able to deduce, is Truth as a Moral phenomena and that it is dependent, apparently, on linguistic expression. haha, Wittgenstein would love me even tho his explanations are rooted in logic & mathematics as language that is a translation to verbal symbolism. I'll have to come back to this mathematical translation to some degree in abit but first:

The question that Nietzsche put forth that was taken, I think, as a challenge by Wittgenstein remains:
"What light does linguistics, and especially the study of etymology, throw on the history of the Evolution of Moral Concepts?"  

By 'Moral Concepts'; Nietzsche is being polite here because he really means Truth as a moral phenomena = 'God', and by Evolution; synonymous with Faith. Thus it could easily be written as
Evolution of Moral Concepts = Faith in Truth or Faith in God or Faith in Science. Yes even Science is a 'Faith based Moral Concept and was one of the Moral Monsters that was the most formidable for me to overcome & defeat but eventually I was able not to destroy it but simply to put it in its proper place & perspective.

So this all goes back along long way in time - today its become that old coin that is just a worn out metal:
Zoroastrian's Faith; Plato's Faith; Aristotle's Faith; Buddha's Faith; Krishna's Faith, Christian Faith, Mohammed's Faith, Atheist's Faith, Agnostic's Faith, Science's Faith............

That Truth is Divine!!! and will always be someones God!

At this point you now begin to realize all of these Moral Monsters I've been fighting with thru out my life and hoping and guarding against that I don't become one myself. I'm nearing the destination as I'm nearing my proof of God's existence.

But first a rant but maybe it means I'm not yelling:
Secular Humanists, Atheists & Agnostics they all are equal in their Faith in Truth. But isn’t that what all of the Worlds Religions desire and seek as well? Isn’t that what they demand? Isn’t it Faith in Truth?? Isn’t Truth the great Authority? Faith in Truth is our great friend?

Its Humanity's great sickness!

Do you see the pattern, here? How can you not see it? Humanity’s psychologically sick obsession with trying to find Truth; at the expense of all Nature – Human nature and our future for a healthy Life. Whether they believe in a God or not – the disease is still the same:

The search for Truth; the obsession for Truth. Authority as Truth! Be it Osiris’ interpretation, be it Moses’ or Jesus’ interpretation; Confucius or Lao Tzu’s interpretation, Jupiter or Zeus’ interpretation; Krishna’s interpretation; Buddha’s interpretation; Islam’s interpretation; Humanism’s interpretation; Secularism’s interpretation; be it Science’s interpretation, the Atheist or Agnostic interpretation, I can go on and on and on………..

even ones own interpretation – that too must be called into question – especially ones own!

The real question here is one of Healthy Value. What is Truth’s value in living a healthy Life??? Living a healthy Life is what’s important – not simply in and of itself, Truth! All manner of Life on this planet have lived healthy lives for hundreds of thousands if not millions of years and not a one of them gives a damn about moral structures based on Truth – even less about Science.

The only animal that is infected with this obsession for Truth and Morality is the extremely new to the world; so infantile; so childish; so inexperienced with Life; the so lately evolved, weak, sickly suicidal, unhealthy & pathetic beast Homo sapiens – its sickness; its infection is precisely its obsession with Truth.

Truth is only a tool not something to worship: when building a house do you worship the hammer? And doesn’t a builder use more than one tool? Don’t they use many tools? ……and isn’t Wisdom the ability to know which tool to use for which purpose? So why does Humanity emphasize only the desire for Truth at the expense of all the other tools that exist in Nature with which to build a healthy & meaningful Life?

We don’t look for or even consider any others. We’re too sick – too weak – you can lead a horse to water but you can’t make it drink: The hell with the water! Man would still want Truth! Why do we think Truth is soooo divine? Why not Untruth once in awhile? Who among us really wants Truth? How come we don’t ever consider Untruth? There are countless Untruths that occur as a part of the evolutionary process that are Healthy to many species. They can be tools as well to help us become Healthy; others as well.

We Vagabonds; the last comedians of Truth (should I laugh or cry?) are the only humans capable of overcoming the obsession with the universality of Truth & Morality and perhaps then leading Humanity into a healthy future: Life based on a Value of our Natural Existence. ……and there are a few such persons - persons with which I see a capability for living in the Natural World in a healthy manner and its those that I love & relish a healthy and edifying conversation with, free of agenda and flowing with new and interesting ideas for a healthy future!

I'm almost ready to throw out an anchor now and rest awhile........
But not quite yet..........INTjohn
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Wabbit (02-27-2017)
John, I admit at times I've had a hard time following your thoughts in this thread, and I haven't always agreed with some of your conclusions. But I admire that you've thought this out. So many in our world just accept whatever is told to them by an "authority" without ever thinking things through. Please continue. It makes for an interesting read, and makes me examine my own beliefs to see if I have any flaws brought about by just accepting what I've been told.
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pnolans (02-27-2017), Wabbit (02-27-2017), INTJohn (02-27-2017)
"Rainy dayz & mondays"
"Its another manic monday........"

OK here's where I really let the Atheists & Agnostix out there have it; haha but take no solace in this, however;  those of you who embrace a belief in transcendental worlds & lands that exist independent of Human thought........ for I am no friend of god; maybe I'm even a little bit part antichrist!

But first the A twins - tho they are not identical:
Atheists are brave persons, for they reject “belief” in God and if there is an all powerful supernatural being that humanity refers to as “God” then they have taken a very courageous position. But this rejection in belief in God is merely a belief that a God does not exist and thus it is a negative belief. It’s not a positive belief of embracing our Natural Existence but Atheism is a negation. These persons, atheists, need a God to NOT believe in – is that unbelief? is that embracing a positive Life? They spend most of their time bashing “belief in God” or other superstitions. They need God to attack as an enemy more than many “believers” I’ve observed need God to worship. Why? What if the concept “God” had never been invented my dear Atheist friends? What would these Atheists have to talk about? They reject belief in God because it isn’t true? They need something “true”? Faith in Truth: but that is no different than Christians or any of the Worlds major religions – they too are seeking ‘Truth’. Atheists need Faith in Truth. They are slaves to Truth. But they can’t find Truth or Life up ahead of them as a part of their Natural Existence so they look backwards and bash the Lie – Nihilism is what really reigns in Atheism.

Agnostics are more cowardly than the Atheist. They won’t go so far as to deny “God’s” existence but neither will they embrace it. Scientifically speaking, by means of the scientific method, they “don’t know for sure”. (Who does?) So they are waiting like good little children for mommy & daddy (Science and Reason) to discover & give them a safely authoritative answer. As if any Human Being has ever been capable of “Science & Reason”. Their new god is Science and Reason – their great Authority – agnostics need Authority to tell them what Truth is; this too is no different than any of the world’s major religions. If Science ever does prove God’s existence these neurotic agnostic asses would then embrace belief in God. And probably garner many an atheist as well. They too need a Faith in Truth - are the slaves of Truth. Such is the case of the pathetic Agnostic Homo sapiens beast. I elaborate then and prove to them, God's existence by their own 'rules'; it kind of pisses me off, frankly that I have to do their fuking work for them:

Proof my dear Atheist & Agnostic twins:
If all that exists is of our physical/natural universe; ie that the Natural realm is all that exists and that this Natural Realm must be then by definition a closed system; and that all forces are part and product of this closed system known as the Natural Realm. Then it follows that Humanity must also be a part & product of and only a part & product of this Natural Realm/Existence.............

If then, Humanity is a part & product of this Natural Realm/Existence and only a part & product of this Natural Realm/Existence and any forces thereof; then all that stems from Humanity must be a part and product of this closed Natural Realm/Existence as well. This of course includes all that is seen/observed outwardly from Humanity but must therefore also include all from Humanity that is not seen/observed outwardly. All the thoughts, feelings, intuitions, etc that are produced by the Human animal that perhaps are not able to be seen outwardly - whether they be 'True' or 'Lie'. Obviously included in this must be the idea, concept of 'God' - as a part and product of this closed system known as the Natural Realm. Otherwise where else; what other 'Realm' has it come from?

God therefore must exist! my dear Atheist/Agnostic friends as a part & product of our Natural Realm/Existence even if only as an abstract invention of the Human mind!

Therefore it follows when the Atheist says there is no God; that God does not exist, the Atheist is in fact denying a part & product of Human Natural Existence (for better or for worse) which is also a denial of the very Natural Realm that must be a closed system. A closed system of which the Atheist & Agnostic says is all that exists. 

So the A Twins not only deny the existence of the supernatural realm but also deny that of the Natural Realm!! If then you deny both the Natural Realm as well as the supernatural realm tell me my A twin friends?:  What the hell is left???  Nothing is left to believe in hence Atheism/Agnosticism = Nihilism. Such is the case of the pathetic A Twins Homo sapiens beast.

The Secular argument then should not be whether or not 'God' exists - but rather who created whom? Did 'God' create the Natural Realm & our Natural Existence or is 'God' a creation of that Natural Realm - as a part & product of Human Existence?

As I see it..................INTJohn
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Wabbit (02-27-2017)
There are some deep thoughts in this thread.  Requires some concentration while reading.  Made it through most of it, but will have to come back and re read when I have less distractions around me and weigh in on some of it.  

As far as god is concerned,  Hubert Reeves says it best in my book.

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I've learned that making a living is not the same thing as making a life.
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Qdini (02-28-2017), pnolans (02-27-2017), Wabbit (02-27-2017), PathofAsha (02-27-2017)
(02-27-2017, 04:33 PM)INTJohn Wrote: ...If all that exists is of our physical/natural universe...

That "if" is huge. What if it's not all that exist? What if something else exists? What if "what if" was never asked? Utopia? Something else?

Really enjoy reading your thoughts. Someday, somehow, we'll meet somewhere, and we will discuss truth and also "Truth".
96 Dodge Ram Van 3500 360 5.9L
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